Monday, December 4, 2023

Schleiermacher and Deutscher Response - Camille

 I enjoyed the framework Schleiermacher uses to describe translation strategies, as moving towards the reader vs towards the author. Though a bit difficult to parse, I think it is a clean way to describe the idea we've talked about previously of preserving an inherent "foreign-ness" of the text (towards the author), and what we want to retain from the original language. I also thought it was interesting how he discussed relationships towards language, the relationship between the author and their native language, the reader and their native language, etc. He seems to be arguing that an author's work is inextricable from their relationship to language, which seems reasonable to me, but frames translation as somewhat of a futile effort. 

I think linguistics is fascinating, so I really enjoyed the Deutscher article! It's interesting to think of linguistic features as a constraint, how do we describe things based on how we are allowed to structure a sentence. Having studied two second languages, one with grammatical gender (French) and one without, it always fascinates me that people who natively speak romance languages have a natural intuition for the grammatical gender of words, even though the rules are not always straightforward, and I have wondered what impact this has on their understanding of gender. I also wonder how growing up speaking Guugu Yimithirr would impact one's understanding of space, and how much it has to do with the language itself versus other cultural aspects. 

Schleiemacher and Deutscher Tai

Reflecting on Guy Deutscher's "Through the Language Glass" and Friedrich Schleiermacher's  philosophies, I find the exploration of human perception through language both intriguing and complex. Deutscher, in his book, illuminates how our native language subtly yet significantly shapes our habitual thoughts and perceptions. His examples, like the gendering of objects in languages and the unique spatial orientation in the Guugu Yimithirr language, highlight the diverse cognitive landscapes created by linguistic differences. This notion compels us to acknowledge the profound, often understated, influence of language on our worldview.

Schleiermacher presents two approaches in his writing: moving the reader towards the author or the author towards the reader. This highlights the translator’s role in bridging linguistic and cultural gaps. His insight into the translator’s task of either preserving the author's voice or adapting it to the reader’s context mirrors the subtle influences of language on thought, as discussed by Deutscher. Schleiermacher’s perspective highlights the complexities of translation, emphasizing the translator's balance between fidelity to the original and the linguistic nuances of the target language.

Both authors make us consider the deeper unexplored influences of language. Deutscher's linguistic exploration and Schleiermacher's philosophical approach to translation both suggest that our understanding of the world is influenced by the languages we speak and cultural nuances. These two readings have given me more insight into the intricate crossroad of language, perception, and cultural understanding. They highlight the significance of how linguistic diversity and translation shape our interaction with the world and our interpretation of it.


Musashi's comment

Through the reading, Schleiermacher's exploration of translation introduces two methods which is basically bringing the reader closer to the author and bringing the author closer to the reader. The first one  involves a more literal approach, retaining cultural references, while the second one prioritizes reader understanding, so sometimes altering the original meaning.  Deutscher's insights into language nuances, like gendered terms and directional references, challenge that language entirely shapes reality. Comparing Schleiermacher and Deutscher, both translation approaches showed me challenges. Bringing the reader closer to the author may result in the creating a different story and no longer has original meanings, while the opposite may risk removing important elements or misinterpreting emotions. The discussion gets deeper into the distinguishing objects across languages and the influence of language on reader's perception. The reader finds the idea that while languages may not differ significantly in expressiveness, the core difference lies elsewhere. The exploration of how language affects thought across cultures was very interesting to me and made me realize again about how the difference between cultures has significant impact on the translation process. It added a relatable touch to the discussion. 

Sunday, December 3, 2023

Schleiermacher and Deutscher (Daniel)

I found Schleiermacher's explanation of the two methods of translating a text to be very fascinating. When comparing "bringing the reader to the author" and "bringing the author to the reader," he describes "bringing the reader to the author" as the translator attempting to enter into the author's mindset, understanding the historical and cultural context in which the text was written. Conversely, "bringing the author to the reader" seems to be where the translator acknowledges the reader's own knowledge and works to connect the author's ideas with the reader's own context and experiences. I believe that as a translator, you must work diligently to understand your personal approach (what strategy you naturally favor) and see in what ways you can find a middle ground between these two approaches if necessary.

I found the article by Deutscher to cover so many interesting aspects of language that I had never even considered. In particular, I found the analysis of the linguistic influence on spatial perception to be extremely eye-opening, as he illustrated how speakers of different languages navigate and remember space based on the particular language that they speak. He provided an example from the Guugu Yimithirr language, which revealed that this language in particular does not use words like “in front of” or “behind” to describe the position of objects. The language instead utilizes geographic coordinates, which is a concept that I had never even considered to be a real thing.

Deutscher and Schleiermacher (Kelly)

 Deutscher

I find Deutscher's essay quite interesting as it explores a concept that I've been curious about. Being bilingual, when it comes to speaking or expressing ideas, in one language it's a simple expression but in another language, it can long and winded explanation. I do agree that by simply not having a word to describe a concept, it doesn't mean we are incapable of understanding that concept. The limitations of language only define the limitations of language, not limitations of our perception of the world. However, language and body expression are the few ways we can express ourselves and if language falls short on us trying to externalize our experience of the world, it can be hard to express exactly how we feel. This is why I feel music is so popular because it adds a second sense (hearing) into describing our realities. There's no need to fret however since language is forever growing with new words and "slang" arising constantly. I find the discussion on grammatical genders quite interesting too since it reminds me of a friend who is studying French who has to constantly guess and memorize the gender of inanimate objects.

Schleiermacher

In Schleiermacher's methods of translation, he offers two kinds -- one on bringing the reader closer to the writer and the other, vise versa. I definitely agree with the first method of bring the reader closer to the writer by helping the reader get as close as possible to the true intentions of the writer by maintaining "the same image" the translator had gotten when reading the original work. I think modifying expressions, references, and subtle nuances to fit to the culture of the translated language rather than the original completely ruins a book. Why not just read a book written by an English speaking writer then? When Tengu gets translated as goblin and takoyaki becomes octopus fritter, I feel like it translates into a very different image in your head.

Schleiermacher and Deutscher (Cat)

 Schleiermacher

Schleiermacher brings up the concept of the translator either "bringing the reader to the author" or "bringing the author to the reader." I feel that both of these concepts are interesting in the sense that they both end up leaving out a lot of important information for the reader no matter which way you decide to translate. By bringing the reader closer to the author, some of the story elements may fall away because the author will have to attempt to explain somewhat niche elements or cultural references to the reader which may cause the flow of the text to diminish. This causes the translated text to not be as similar to the original text since the original text often doesn't need to explain cultural aspects or nuances to the reader since the reader is already inherently aware of those aspects. However, if the author decides to bring the author to the reader, the author may be removing elements that may be considered to be crucial to the original text. The author may also be removing the import that emotions or understandings or possibly mistranslating them when localizing them to the language they are translating into. 

Deutscher

Deutscher discusses how Whorf's belief that language shapes our perception of reality is not entirely true based on recent evidence disclaiming this way of thinking. Especially when it comes to the way certain languages organize the contents of a sentence, SVO, gender, etc. Whorf's ideas feel very tunnel-visioned. From personal experience, I feel that if this concept were true, then it would be very difficult for me to communicate in Russian with my parents and use both English and Russian interchangeably as in theory some of the concepts in Russian would be impossible to express in English and vice versa. However, I can communicate my thoughts and ideas just fine even when flipping back and forth between the two languages within one conversation. It was really interesting to learn more about the gender-ification of objects described in this paper. I have long been aware that the Russian language assigns gender to inanimate objects, but it is very interesting to see that an object's gender may alter from one language to the next as well as the general meaning or traits assigned to that gender. Discussion about directions is also very interesting to learn about as I have realized that I would simply not survive receiving directions in certain languages as I am directionally challenged and do not remember my compass directions from the top of my head. 

Schleiermacher and Deutscher - Jane

 Scheleiermacher repeated a lot of points that have been made regarding translating by other readings we have done. The part that stood out to me was the beginning when he discussed the 2 methods of translating and the section in the middle about the biggest humiliation a translator can feel. The 2 methods he mentioned (choosing to translate for the writer or the reader) neatly organized the multiple ways of translating onto a spectrum. I know I personally like to translate depending on my understanding of it while trying to do it as direct as possible. This kind of translating also leans into the topic of translating for your native tongue. If you translate directly, then the readers of the native language may not understand what is being said (maybe a joke or a relation that is made in the foreign language and not the native one). The failure to consider these factors or recognizes these risks in translating was described as the biggest humiliation a translator should experience. Because in the end, no matter how bad the original text may have been or how hard the translation process was, if the final translated product is not enjoyable to read, it is ultimately the fault of the translator and not the reader. This big responsibility that translators choose to take on and rise to the challenge is interesting and will forever be under appreciated.

Deutscher's paper brought to light a lot of oppressive tendencies that were seen in a lot of countries (*especially America) when it comes to cohesion of two or more different groups. Conformity is forced upon people when they are in new environments, especially ones where the language and culture are different. The way someone's language has taught them to think will have an everlasting impact on the way they see the world. Because of this, interpretation of/ conveying information differs greatly and in turn affects the way each person sees the world (whether it is directions, colors, feminine and masculine grammar, etc.) This did make me wonder: is language defined/influenced by culture or vice versa? This almost sounds like the question "which came first: the chicken or the egg," which would lead to the conclusion that it is both, there is no right answer. 

Schleiermacher and Deutscher (Micah)

Schleiermacher

In his writing, Schleiermacher describes two different methods of translating a text. The first he describes as bring the reader towards the author, and the second as bringing the writer towards the reader bringing the reader towards the author refers to the method of translating it more literally and leaving in things that are not in the language that it is being translated to such as cultural references. The second method is to translate the text so that the translation changes the meaning so that it is more easily understandable to the reader it is being translated to. I think that both work, but have different times to be used. For example, if the writing was an academic piece that needs to communicate facts, I would prefer to read it through the second method because I would want to get to the point. But, if it was something such as a fictional story, leaving out cultural references would get rid of the authenticity and charm of the original writing that the author intended to create.


Deutscher

I found Deutscher's reading to be very insightful as it opened my eyes to a wide variety of nuances amongst different languages and how it can affect the meaning of what is being communicated. The first example given was how English typically has a gender neutral version of many words, while languages like Spanish force you to specify which gender the subject is. While I wouldn't think this has a huge effect on communicating thoughts, it does make me wonder how those who go by unconventional pronouns and gender identities feel about these distinct categorizations of a subject. Another interesting thing pointed out by Deutscher was how certain languages use cardinal direction to refer to space vs. words such as "left" or "right." To me, this would be a massive pain, but Deutscher explains how the people who use this language have an extremely acute sense of direction and don't have to think twice about it, which I found very interesting.

Schleiermacher and Deutscher (Jordan)

 I was excited to read You Are What You Speak because the topic is absolutely fascinating to me, and it's something I've pondered myself. I didn't realize there was such a large discourse around the idea of language shaping your thoughts and experiences already. I found Roman Jakobson's maxim interesting. While it may be true that for the most part, languages don't differ much in terms of what they can express, the idea that all languages share exactly what ideas they can express is one I don't believe. Maybe his point is that this is not where the core difference between languages lies. Reading about how language can affect the way we think makes me curious as to specific ways people think differently across cultures, and what the implications would be. Speaking of gendered objects, I have a friend from Austria who would sometimes refer to objects as "he" or "she". I now want to ask them if even when speaking English they maintain this idea of objects having genders. I never thought that ego-centric coordinates were a language-based thing. It has always seemed simpler to me to use left or right because it doesn't require you to know the orientation of where you are, only your own orientation. 

Schleiermacher and Deutscher Readings - Bruce

     In response to the Schleiermacher reading, he essentially believes in two discrete systems of translation. The first, and his preferred method of "bringing the reader to the author" calls for the translator to translate the work in a way such that it might resemble the author's original text, had it been written in the target language. The advantages of this method is to immerse the reader in the cultural and historical contexts of the work, and thus convey much more substance than simply the contents of the work. This would assume some interest and education in the reader regarding the original language. The second method is to "bring the author to the reader," which he describes to be "imitations" of the original work, and should only be used to "whet the appetite" of a demographic ignorant to the original language, so that they may be able to appreciate when a superior translation is made available. He also asserts that there is no viable alternative, and that any attempt to let the author and reader meet half way should result in abject failure. I think his views come from his personal experiences as a theologian and translator of Latin to German. At the time, and to a lesser degree, even now, Latin is viewed as a language for intellectuals, and those who write in Latin are viewed as the zenith of philosophy. Even beyond that, Latin was seen as the sacred language. German, on the other hand, was the common language spoken by peasants, serfs, and in general, the common man. As such, it should not be surprising to see him place Roman writers on such a pedestal to the point that he is seemingly in disdain of bringing Latin literature to the common German man. Personally, I agree that translated works should serve as a gateway for readers to develop interest in a foreign culture. Although, to the extent that literature as an artform has developed a much more independent and universal appeal, I disagree that there is no middle ground between the author and the reader. However, I do admit it is infinitely harder to find that middle ground than it is to use either of  these methods.

    Deutscher's reading was much more conceptually captivating. Although I do find the idea of  an academic snakesoil salesman being responsible for devasting the intellectual landscape of an entire field of study to be absurdly hilarious, I can appreciate the public sentiment and support for the original assertions made by Whorf. Humans are always trying to define what makes them special, and I can see that moving beyond race, gender, sexuality, (and hack fields like astrology and Myers-Briggs personality tests) to mother tongues might have been the natural progression. To give Whorf some credit, though a charlatan, he did seem to give it his all when developing his hack theory, so we can really only blame the public for subscribing to a chemical engineer's hypotheses about linguistics. But beyond that, Deutscher does present several interesting points about the effects one's mother tongue has on their point of view. Personally, I was always interested in why in Japanese, the word for blue was 青 (ao), whereas in Chinese, that same kanji 青 (qing) meant either a light shade of green or a light shade of blue. On the other hand, the kanji 绿 (lv/midori) meant green in both language, and the Chinese kanji for blue, 蓝(lan)was simply  absent from Japanese. Now I'm slightly more motivated to do some research about that in the future. 

F. Schleiermacher and Deutscher readings - Racky

 Deutscher's reading was really interesting. One of the parts that grabbed my attention was that "the most serious one was to assume that our mother tongue constrains our minds and prevents us from being able to think certain thoughts." This claim is half true and half wrong. Mother tongue greatly affects how you think because a language is strongly related to the culture, which often shapes people's way of thinking. However, the mother tongue does not exactly prevent people from thinking in a certain way. Rather, it makes people tend to think in a certain way. One example used in the text was that the German language specifies gender in pretty much all actions, while English doesn't necessarily specify gender in the sentence. This does not mean that English prevents English speakers from thinking about gender, but it just means that in English, people tend to not care about whether a certain action is done by a male or female. Understanding the language characteristics is critical when translating because sometimes it might sound more natural to specify gender.    

Schleiermacher's reading made an important point in terms of translational methods. According to the text, there are always two ways to translate the text. It's either focusing on the readers or the author. Some translators make some changes in the text because it makes more sense to readers; however, some translators focus on keeping the author's original text as much as possible, even though it might be difficult for readers to understand. Of course, this is up to the author's decision. I personally think that making changes, such as using preferred expressions in certain languages, is critical in translation because if readers cannot fully understand the author's point, then the creativity of the author's work decreases. 

Schleiermacher and Deutscher Reading Responses (Grace)

Reading Responses (Grace)

Schleiermacher Response

Schleiermacher, in a very dramatic and perhaps overly flamboyant way, offered his opinions on two methods. of translation, one of which he agreed with far more than the other. The first method involves moving the reader towards the author. In other words, the reader should be immersed within the cultural nuances of, and understandings brought about when reading something in a foreign language. Schleiermacher believes that this is the most effective way of translating, as the reader becomes immersed in the culture of those who speak that foreign language. While there may be cultural barriers and historical contexts that might be unfamiliar to the reader, Schleiermacher believes that this confusion is better than complete ignorance, which comes to light when he talks about the second method of translation.

This second method brings the writer closer to the reader. In other words, if the reader is reading a German translation of a work, the translator should strive to make the author write as if they were a German author.  Schleiermacher does not believe that this is a good method of translation, as this method reduces the cultural aspects of, and potentially misinterprets or omits the nuances of the foreign language, present in the original work. For example, if the foreign piece is historical and is based off of historical events that took place in that foreign nation, and holds great cultural importance to the characters in the work, trying to localize such a work using this method would completely destroy the original cultural significance of the work. Therefore, I agree with Schleiermacher that this second method is far worse than the first.


Deutscher Response

I found this article to be much more eye-opening than the previous, as the topics it discusses are things that I had never thought about before: the fact that different languages make us feel obligated to think about different things. The way that speakers of different languages think about directions especially struck me as intriguing. One way that this shocked me was how speakers of languages that navigate using only the cardinal directions are able to tell at any given time (even after being spun around blindfolded!) are able to tell which cardinal direction they are facing. This is something that most English speakers, who generally use themselves as a reference of direction, cannot do. After reading about this, I thought about how a translator would go about translating one of these cardinal direction-dependent languages into a primarily self-reference-dependent one. Should the translator just use the self-referential system when translating into English, just the cardinal system, or a combination of both? I hope that we can discuss this topic in class!

Schleiermacher and Deutscher Response - Camille

 I enjoyed the framework Schleiermacher uses to describe translation strategies, as moving towards the reader vs towards the author. Though ...